Lance Avery Morgan
The Legendary Redhead And Sultan Of Sequins Reveal All In This Exclusive Interview
It was a match made in heaven. Television’s favorite variety comedienne and an upcoming costume designer…and they began a relationship that would define the extravagant style of the 1960s and 1970s. Funny was never more stylish than when San Antonio native Carol Burnett and designer Bob Mackie collaborated, entertained, and brought laughter into millions of hearts and homes with their combined creative talents. Here’s an in-depth, behind-the-scenes look at the glitzy duo’s magic, with an unprecedented glimpse into what happened every week over two decades…in one of the most popular television series of all time. Our Lance Avery Morgan spoke with Burnett and Mackie in unprecedented depth to get an inside look at their funny business.
Photography courtesy of archival sources, Bob Mackie
Courtesy of Bob Mackie
LEGENDARY STATUS
It’s been said that comedy isn’t pretty. Silly, yes. But pretty? Rarely. Although sometimes, just sometimes, it can be really quite beautiful. Slim, trim, and sparkling at 87 when I spoke to her, and now 92, Burnett is still a hard-working actor. She recently appeared in her one-woman show, A Conversation with Carol Burnett, to share some of her favorite career moments and answer questions from the audience. Recently, in a conversation with Burnett, I got to bump up the lights with her to see what makes this star tick. And how she looked so beautifully funny while doing it.
Lance Avery Morgan: You’re considered a legend at this point in your career. Is that odd, or is it still about the work for you?
Carol Burnett: You know, I don’t think anybody thinks they are a legend. To me, the legends were people like Bing Crosby and James Stewart. They were bigger than life. It is about the work. It’s not ‘Oh, here comes the legend’ for me. I just show up and hit my marks.
LAM: What drew you to comedy and variety?
CB: When I was in my 20s, I did The Garry Moore Show. I had such a good time with it that I wanted to do it myself. These days, very few people remember his show, but he had one of the best in the world. It was a true musical-comedy-variety show. We had numerous guest stars and presented it like a live show, even though it was taped. After his show went off the air, I received offers to host my own show on CBS, with titles like “Here’s Agnes.” That wasn’t what I wanted to do because I didn’t want to be the same person every week. Especially somebody named Agnes. With variety, I loved that I could be different characters and have my own guest stars. So, when I left New York, where we did Garry’s show, to come to Los Angeles, many of the writers, producers, and performers came out with me. It was a perfect segue because everybody knew what they were doing.
LAM: You’ve teamed with some of the greats–Julie Andrews, Lucille Ball, and so many more. Plus, all your series’ co-stars and guest stars. How important is the collaborative process for you?
CB: I loved musicals growing up. So, for me, all of what we did on the show was the best of all possible worlds. And it worked. It was a phenomenal cast with fantastic synergy.
DREAMS DO COME TRUE
Growing up in the Depression in the 1930s wasn’t easy for a child. Born into a Texas family of modest circumstances, Burnett relied more on her grandmother than on her parents, whom she learned early on could not be trusted. It created an unstoppable drive for her to be an entertainer and make people laugh. Proving once again that the best comedy strikes from the darkest origins. Seeing the light of music, dance, and comedy was what Burnett did to survive. She and her grandmother would move to Los Angeles, where Burnett attended school, and in 1951, she became yet another famous alumna of Hollywood High School. With a scholarship to UCLA, her destiny was chartered. She’d study drama but intended to become a playwright, hence her close relationships with the writers who would write her career’s myriad of funny lady lines.
In the mid-1950s, Burnett landed a spot on The Winchell-Mahoney Show and on a sitcom called Stanley, co-starring Buddy Hackett until 1957. She then created a persona on the nightclub and cabaret circuits, a crash course in connecting with her audience. She came to national acclaim on the variety shows like Ed Sullivan and Jack Parr’s The Tonight Show, with a parody tune called I Made a Fool of Myself Over John Foster Dulles. What lent the song its humor was that Dulles was known to be a very dull and dry secretary of state, about as unsexy as it gets.
After that came success on Broadway in Once Upon a Mattress, followed by Moore’s show (for which she won the first of her five Emmy Awards in 1962) and specials starring talents like Julie Andrews. “Carol probably brings out the worst in me. We bonded the minute we first met and usually do wicked, silly, naughty things whenever we get together,” Andrews said about their partnership. From there, it was up, up, up to the pinnacle of success, starring in her own CBS weekly show in the fall of 1967. Pop culture would never be the same.
LAM: Carol, hundreds of millions of people on this planet have enjoyed your show. Even as a kid, watching it, it seemed to me that a lot of work went into it. Was it an 80-hour work week to make it all happen?
CB: We really were so organized. So organized that we’d go in on Mon at 10 AM and read through the script, put a sketch on feet, then go home. The same for Tuesday…we’d go in, have lunch, go into a dance rehearsal, and be out by 3 PM. On Wednesday, I’d go in at noon, review costumes, do a run-through for the crew, and be out by 4:30 PM. We’d rehearse on Thursdays from 2-6 PM, then return after dinner from 7-9 PM, and then go home. Friday was the show’s taping, and by then, we’d nail it, unless it took longer because of the Mr. Tudball and Mrs. Wiggins skit, which Tim would adlib anyway.
So, even though we did more episodes a season than is now done, we’d have several weeks off, summers, and Christmas breaks. Can you believe we did it all in about 30 hours a week? Now it’s so different in television. They’re still shooting in the studio at 1 AM. The poor guests. And the poor actors. They’re like warhorses–if audiences are even laughing by the end of the taping.
LAM: In the 1970s, your show really reached a high level of popularity. You, Vicki Lawrence, Tim Conway, Lyle Waggoner, and Harvey Korman were superstars. What drives you to perform and make the world laugh?
CB: It makes you feel good. My biggest compliment is when someone tells me, as you did, that my show was the time their whole family would watch television together. To be a family. We were lucky we were part of that Saturday night lineup…with All In The Family, Bob Newhart, and Mary Tyler Moore. It was magic.
LAM: There was a great deal of effort that went into what your show looked like…that’s where designer Bob Mackie comes in. You sort of discovered him, didn’t you?
CB: When we decided to do the series, my husband Joe and I had seen his work in Las Vegas for Mitzi Gaynor and just loved it. Then, we saw the television special Alice Through the Looking Glass and thought the costumes were so inventive, fun, and colorful. And, again, it was Bob Mackie. We got in touch and told him we wanted to meet at our home to discuss our show. So, the doorbell rings, and I open the door to what looks to be a twelve-year-old. At the time, he was 24. We hired him on the spot.
LAM: Is there a great deal of trust level a star needs to have in a designer?
CB: For the first three to four weeks, when we started doing the show, Bob would show me some sketches to get approval. Finally, after that short amount of time, I said, ‘Just tell me when you want me to come to the fitting’ because there was no need for the design’s approval by me. I loved what he was doing. It’s about trust, and he had that with me. I recall a time when a sketch required me to hang from a chandelier that I had to climb. So, naturally, I thought I should wear slacks. Bob said being in a tight skirt and high heels would be more fun. I had ‘funny legs’–so being in a skirt and turning and dangling made it much funnier. Bob had that intuition, too.
LAM: He designed your opening gowns, as well as all your characters each week. Many of them were real showstoppers since Bob Mackie’s signature was glitz and glam–was that part of what you wanted to project to your audience?
CB: I loved getting all dressed up and getting the laughs. I never knew what he was going to put me in each week. I loved what he designed for the opening outfits I would wear to talk to the audience. He did every single costume, not just mine. That was about 50 costumes a week–with Harvey, Vicki, Tim, the dancers. The more you do, the more you can do.
LAM: Did the costumes become a part of how you approached your characters? What was your favorite costume or character with Bob creating 17,000 costumes over 11 seasons?
CB: They did. My favorite had to be the Gone With The Wind outfit. You know, the writers wrote that I would pull down draperies, and then they would just be hanging on me in the next scene, which would have been funny. So we went into our usual Wednesday costume fitting that week, and Bob said, ‘I have an idea.’ That’s how Scarlett’s curtain rod dress was born. When we shot it, it was so hard for me to keep from laughing, so I had to bite the inside of my mouth. Plus, the taping was the first time the audience and crew had seen it, so it surprised everyone.
LAM: And what about Mrs. Wiggins, one of my favorites? Mackie designed the perfect outfit to capture that character, didn’t he?
CB: When we first thought about doing Mrs. Wiggins’ character, she was a senile, elderly lady. So we thought, why don’t we make her a bimbo whom the I.Q. fairy had never visited? Bob had so many great ideas for her, like the pushup bra and the fake nails. I went in for the fitting, and he fitted me with a black, slim skirt that was very tight at the knees. But, it had a baggy behind. And I have a flat behind. So I told him, ‘I think we’re going to have to take this in.’ Bob said, ‘Stick your butt into where it’s baggy.’ And that’s how the crazy walk started… with the high heels, of course. It was another classic. He designed all the show’s wigs, too, you know.
LAM: You did so many characters, and there was Bob Mackie, week after week, creating what would be classic costumes to match your priceless characters…
CB: He was. I also recall playing a character who was a Cockney tart during the time of Jack the Ripper in the late 1800s. I couldn’t get into her character for some reason, and Bob said, ‘Since people then had such bad teeth, why don’t you black out a tooth, so it looks chipped?’ And what happens when you have a chipped tooth? You lisp. So I lisped, and the character became very funny no matter what I said. Bob thinks like a comedic writer and director.
MAN OF DESIGN
“A woman who wears my clothes is not afraid to be noticed,” says the Sultan of Sequins, Bob Mackie. The prolific designer should know. He’s won nine Emmy Awards (and has been nominated for 31) and has also been nominated for three Academy Awards. He won the Tony Award for his most recent work, Broadway’s The Cher Show. But it’s not just about the accolades for Mackie. It’s about the creative process. Mackie remains a highly sought-after designer for made-to-order clientele, in addition to helming successful products through his appearances on the QVC network and, more recently, as the subject of the documentary Bob Mackie: Naked Illusion. Now, at 85 years young, he remains very much in the design game with his inimitable dynamic touch and is still adored by worldwide fans.
Cameron Silver, fashion director at Halston Style, and author of Decades, remarks about Mackie’s talents, “Just look at the last Dior Haute Couture shows Galliano has done, and you see Mackie’s influence. When Cher was overheard saying it was her favorite show and she would wear all the clothing, it’s a great validation that costume and fashion have fused at the highest echelon of style.”
With Cher, it’s about designing with less fabric and more razzle-dazzle. When they met, Cher’s look was more fringe vests and bellbottoms until collaborating with Mackie. Cher herself admits she’d be a peacock without feathers without Mackie. “I think I’m the oldest living designer in Hollywood,” says Mackie.
Mackie has been able to mix his profound talent as a costume designer with his couturier ability to create some of the most iconic fashion images of the 20th century.” Mackie wowed audiences every week on Burnett’s show with an outrageous array of imaginative colors, luxury fabrics, beading, feathers, fur, and just about any other adornment that could create an instant impression. He created a body of instant images that have lasted to this day, decades later. And, he has plenty of fans in the Lone Star State.
Lance Avery Morgan: Bob, Texans love your style.
Bob Mackie: I’ve been to Texas many times. I loved doing trunk shows at Neiman’s when I had a clothing line there. Austin’s great, too. It’s very hip. I enjoy meeting Texas’ very modern women. Whenever I am in New York and walking down Madison or Park, I see a woman who is beautifully dressed and wearing color; she is almost always from Texas.
LAM: Speaking of hip, you’ve designed creations in your career for just about every star, including Cher (while simultaneously doing Burnett’s show), Barbra Streisand, Lucille Ball, Elton John, Sharon Stone, and so many more. How is costuming different these days?
BM: It’s all about shopping now. The way the designers–or personal stylists do, bringing in a rack so the star and director can choose what will be worn. It’s just different. I did Carol’s show for 11 years, and I never once had her wear a pair of jeans.
LAM: What was the most challenging aspect when doing The Carol Burnett Show?
BM: I did everyone’s clothes, including the guest stars’, which was like running a marathon each week. It was exciting to find out what the script would be like on a Friday for the next week’s show. There never seemed to be enough time. I made it work. You could say it was an adrenaline rush.
LAM: I’ll bet. That reminds me of when Garry Marshall told me he had to wear skates on the Paramount lot to keep up with going between the hit shows he had on simultaneously, like Happy Days, Laverne & Shirley, and Joanie Loves Chachi. Carol told me you designed almost 50 costumes a week for the show. Did you have a large team to implement the costumes at the time?
BM: I had a male assistant who would help with the men’s clothes. If there were uniforms, we would just rent those. I had a female assistant to help with the women’s costumes. Although I designed so much, for some characters, like a simple housewife part, we’d just buy a dress.
LAM: What was your favorite costume for a Carol character?
BM: We did over 200 shows, and the one that got the most attention was the Gone With The Wind outfit. It was recently on display at a television costume exhibit at the FITM Design School. But mostly, it was just another week, another show.
LAM: It’s become a true classic. Our mutual friend, Jan Strimple in Dallas, told me that when she attended one of your birthday parties, Diahann Carroll arrived in a Scarlett O’Hara costume, complete with a curtain rod. Any others? What about the classic movie homage skits?
BM: Those were really fun. Remember, that was back in the day before VHS and DVD rentals…and way before streaming.
LAM: So, did you depend on The Late, Late Show as a resource, or how did you design, like say, Mildred Pierced, a take-off on the Joan Crawford movie that was a very successful sketch, or, say, Sunset Boulevard?
BM: I have a collection of fashion books that I could reference, plus I’d seen all those old movies and loved them. Sometimes, though, it was tough. For instance, in the books, they might not have a photo of the bottom of the skirt…the hemline. So, I just made do. Looking back and having access to those movies now, I was pretty close. I just had a feeling about the film and its period.
LAM: You also designed Carol’s opening segment, in which she would answer questions from the audience. The gowns were gorgeous, many with your signature beads and sparkles. What was your inspiration for those?
BM: With her opening gowns, I wanted Carol to wake up the audience and have her look attractive and like their friend. I knew that later she’d be in one crazy costume after another, so I wanted her to be seen as more real in the opening outfits. When I see a group of those show openers now, I think, ‘wow, she could wear those today.’
LAM: You’ve shared with me that you often switched out Carol and Cher’s costumes when you were in a pinch.
BM: That’s right, if I designed a dress with a plunging neckline for Cher, I’d turn it around and use the same dress for Carol, making it backless. Carol loved her back and didn’t mind showing it off.
LAM: What was your favorite aspect of working with Carol over the years?
BM: It was a gift because I loved the movie musicals growing up. It was the first weekly variety show with a lady star. Also, to design for comedy, dance, singing, and musical numbers. It was all a dream for me.
NOTE: See the new documentary on Bob Mackie, Bob Mackie: Naked Illusion here.
BACK TO YOU, CAROL
Star power. That’s what Carol Burnett has. And, star quality. She’s respectful of her background and knows how lucky she is to have achieved what she has. “I loved when we did all the film take-offs on the show. My grandmother and I would go to ‘the picture show’ in Texas, and we’d see those double features, and I grew up watching and loving movies,” Burnett confides.
LAM: Who created all the ideas for the movie parodies? They were really genius.
CB: Because I loved all those movies, too, I’d go to the writers and say, ‘let’s do Mildred Pierce. Which led to Gilda, The Postman Always Rings Twice, Sunset Boulevard, and all the others. And you know what? After we did them, the stars of those movies would come on as guests. We had on Rita Hayworth, Lana Turner, and Gloria Swanson—all of them. I’ll never forget the time Steve Lawrence and I did a take-off of From Here to Eternity.
LAM: Right. The one where the beach scene has all the water that soaks you both. It’s hilarious. You had all those amazing guest stars. That being said, who has inspired you most in your life and career?
CB: Definitely Garry Moore because he knew how to run a show and never had any ego about him at all. He knew what was best for the show. He’d say, ‘Give that funny line to Durwood (Kirby), or let Carol have that.’ He was very supportive. I feel that way, too. I’ve loved playing straight man to Tim or Harvey. We all gave. We loved and looked out for each other.
LAM: That came across with your character Eunice in the Mama’s family ensemble sketch, too.
CB: I always loved playing Eunice. There was such a pitifulness about her. It could be very serious stuff if we didn’t go overboard with accents. One time, we experimented that way and decided to do it seriously, and it indeed was very dark. The writers never wrote a joke for the sketch because they were really all character-driven one-acts. So it got to be funny with the exaggerated way we performed it.
LAM: Do you think a phenomenon like your show could ever happen again?
CB: I feel blessed, but I don’t think it could happen again–it would be so prohibitive, money-wise. The music was so elaborate. Now they charge a fortune to license five seconds of a song.
LAM: Do you think there’s the creativity out there that could handle it now?
CB: I think the talent is definitely out there. The people are out there, but there’s just no vehicle for them. People like Martin Short, Billy Crystal, and Kristin Chenoweth…they are absolutely brilliant. But they have to be on sitcoms–or Broadway. They could do a great variety show if they were ever allowed to do it.
LAM: Speaking of talent, you appeared in the 2000s hit, Desperate Housewives, with our fellow Texans Eva Longoria, Ricardo Chavez, and Mechad Brooks. Was that fun?
CB: It was so much fun. I only got to work with Marcia Cross because of the scenes I was in, but I loved it. I talked to some of the crew, and they said everyone was so supportive of each other. It was a well-run ship.
LAM: Carol, you offer your reminiscences in the conversational show with which you tour. What can a fan expect to see with that?
CB: I always look forward to it. I’ve done this many times before and realize that the show is only as good as the audience. We show clips during the evening, and I then talk about the story behind them. Then, we’ll talk about the great musical performances we did. It’s a fun evening.
LAM: You’ve already written your autobiographies, so what else can we expect from you as you continue to entertain? We all love that your show can be viewed again on streaming platforms and networks like Sling.
CB: I’m writing another book. It’s anecdotal about the people I’ve known—and fun fan stories. Plus, I’ll write about when I met Cary Grant, Jimmy Stewart…and how it all came about. It will be lighthearted. Like life should be.
